Hi All,

 

I'm wanting to install a JPI 930 into my -180.

Before I embark I was hoping to get a 'real world' idea of installation costs of the 4cyl 2 tank model. One shop quoted me 100 hours to install which seems unreasonable but who knows...

Anyone out there have any experiences with this unit they'd be willing to share?

Regards,

James.

James, I had one installed about 2 years ago however it was done in conjunction with a whole new panel and avionics. I don't remember the labor being that bad. I know it does involve draining and calibrating the fuel tanks. I was thinking n the $2000 range for labor. I love mine. Having accurate fuel quanity and fuel planning data alone was worth the cost to me. I am not sure where you are located but you could call Rowan Jones at Ron Collins in Henderson, KY. They did mine . I am sure he could give you a ball park price over the phone. Below is his number:

 

270 827 1163

Good luck,

Mark

Hi Mark,

 

Thanks for the quick reply. I'm located in New Zealand so we only have a few avionics shops to choose from down here...

$2000 seems far more reasonable. I guess that is ~20 hrs at ~$100 an hour...

I may give Rowan a call anyway to get a better idea of what I'm in for.

Thanks again,

James.

I'm not up on JPI 930 installations but I did have an 830 installed in my 250 1-1/2 years ago. I had a number of other things done at the same time so I can't give you a precise installation figure but I believe 20 hours to install a 930 is unrealistically optimistic. Remember, your shop will need to remove a lot of 50 year old wiring and plumbing before they can even begin the new installation which itself is a lot of work. I would suggest 40 hours minimum, based on my experience with the 830.

 

Some other observations:
(1) I assume your installation will include an OAT feature. My remote JPI OAT probe was installed midway up the pilot's side of the fuselage, just behind the firewall. A simple and seemingly sensible location. Bad choice. The OAT probe picks up engine heat while in flight with the result that the temperature readout consistently displays an OAT that is 2 degrees C warmer than does my old original "meat thermometer" unit. If this inaccurate OAT information was being fed into a sophisticated avionics suite the magic calculations arising from it would be worthless. Installing the remote OAT probe in a different location will almost certainly involve additional labour, but whatever you do don't mount yours where mine is.
(2) Put some serious thought into where your 930's display is going to reside in your panel, as it may be difficult to read if your angle of sight is too oblique. Once again I can't speak with authority about the 930, but I can tell you that my 830's display is unreadable beyond 45 degrees. This difficulty of reading the display at oblique angles is virtually impossible whenever the display is bathed in direct sunlight. If your display is mounted on the far side of your panel and you need shield it from the sun with your right hand while simultaneously craning your body over the co-pilot's seat to read it you would be well advised to either fly alone or at the very least have an understanding passenger.
(3) I am acquainted with a number of owners who have various models of JPI equipment in their planes and every one of them reports trouble-free experiences. My unit was the exception, giving numerous spurious and erratic readings almost from new. My dealer spent a lot of time trouble-shooting and working with JPI's very good tech support people. JPI finally sent me a loaner unit so that they could have a look at my faulty unit. They replaced my unit with a completeley new unit without argument. The only problem is, their policy is to NOT compensate the dealer for warranty labour. Based on my dealer's shop rate, I would guess that my dealer has something like $800 invested in warranty labour in my unit which must be classified as "goodwill". I am grateful that (1) my avionics shop and my aircraft maintenance shop are sister companies, so there is no "passing the buck", and more important (2) that we have enjoyed a good, constructive working relationship that spans almost two decades. JPI evidently makes a very good product which they stand behind. I have no intention of slagging them over their warranty labour policy but sometimes things do go wrong and when they do there is no substitute for dealing with people who have become your friends.
Don Ostergard
c-flhv@magtech.ca

Don,

 

Excellent post. Thanks for sharing.

The OAT digital Davtron probe is just below the pilot window on the Twin - great location for a twin but I hadn't thought about engine heat for a single. Thanks for bringing that point up in such a positive manner.

Thanks for the insight Don,

 

As luck would have it my aircraft was completely restored by a previous owner back in 1999 and all the old wiring etc was replaced at that time. Hopefully, this should still be in reasonable condition.

Regarding placement, I'm looking to mount the 930 at the top of the central radio stack (Ron and John's panel). The idea behind this is that I didn't want to mount it on the co-pilots side for exactly the reasons you stated but I didn't want to embark upon unnecessary panel surgery to mount it near the 6 pack either...

Sorry to hear about your warranty issues Don; I guess we all have to 'roll the dice' to a certain degree with things like this... But you make a very good point about the relationship between the avionics retailer and the installer...

Regarding the OAT placement; does JPI have a recommendation as to where to place the probe?

Thanks again for sharing,

James.

Got quote last week to install a 830 in my 260c In Connecticut.price was around $2500.2 1/2 to 3 days work. Keep in mind the 830 doesnt tie into the tank sensors,so add time to do that. Florida price was $1800.

Don,
You are right about the labor involved of a 930 install. I called the shop that did mine and the cost of a stand alone install would be more in the $7,000.00- $8,000.00 range. Initially I had some issues that were caused by 2 bad fuel flow transducers and a unit that was set up for fuel injected instead of carb. After the bugs were worked out everthing has been good. My shop ate the labor. I have not noticed if my OAT is off by 2 degrees as the 930 is my only OAT source. I had the 930 installed where the original engine instruments were located on the copilot side. That was the beauty to me was to get rid of the old instrument cluster. I don't recall ever having a problem with glare. The only time I have an issue is if I wear certain sun glasses it blocks some colors. I think it has something to do with the polarization. I keep a pair of Ray Bans in the plane that I fly with. I had this same problem flying the glass panel on the Canadair Regional Jet. It has a manuel dim feature that i like for night. The 930 also has a remote auxillary display that is mounted below my CDI that gives a constant MP and RPM read out. It also will flash any out of range limitations. My favorite is "LFT AUX 0 or RHT AUX 0" this is about the same time I get the elbow to the ribs from the wife to change tanks. The downloaded data from the 930 has helped me confirm everything from a bad magneto to carb ice.

 

James,
I would not put the 930 in the radio stack. I would save that space for something you would look at far more like a GTN 750 moving map. On take off and landing it is not that important. Once I get it leaned in cruise flight I am done except for the flashing zero fuel and the elbow. Also it will cross fill with your 530/430 and display the fuel flow and fuel endurance/planning information on the Garmin. Save the center stack for something that is going to give you more situational awareness on an instrument approach. Just my 2 cents!

Good Luck

Mark

Thanks Mark,

 

That's the figure I was afraid of... $7-8000 for install makes for a pricey bit of kit. I understand also that calibrating the fuel quantity sensors is no small task either with the unit having to be sent back to JPI for final calibration?

Regarding the location; I don't think a GTN750 or even a 530W will ever be in my budget so I'm thinking I may as well fill the stack with something 'pretty' and it will save panel surgery and $$'s. That said, I've attached a couple of pictures. The current panel and a mockup option. Comments would be appreciated.

I should add that my mission profile is primarily VFR with the occasional 'light IFR' where the situation warrants.

Cheers,

James.

P.S. Really nice panel Mark.

James, looks nice! What is your reason for wanting the 930? Are you're engine gauges bad ? Are you planning to cut a new panel? Is that the area in black or are you just plugging the holes? Wich one is the current panel? With what you have now, I think the money may be better spent on a GPS with a moving map. It looks like you will be pushing 15k $ on the 930. Not trying to talk you out of the 930 it is a great instrument to have,but I think you would get more enjoyment out of a Garmin 530 for close to the same money. Do you currently have the Aspen installed? I am not sure if I would do the 930 unless you cut a whole new panel. In most cases the actual panel is the least expensive in the whole process. Sorry for all the questions , just trying to get the big picture? I wish I was in New Zealand! How is the weather?

 

Thanks

Mark

James,
On your panel plan, you will be severely disappointed if you cut it that way, with the radio stack descending below the yokes as the depth you can work with there is only suited for very shallow items, as there is a cross cable that interferes. The radios you have penned in are certainly way too deep to fit there!
-Zach

Don,

 

Here's a suggestion which "may" help with the erroneous temperature readings. The original "meat" thermometer had a brass cover sleeve that screwed on to the probe. I put a Davtron thermometer in the same location, and had the same problem. So I took that cover from the old thermometer and checked first to see if it was the same thread as on the new therm probe. It was. Next step was to cut the sleeve back so it covered the probe, with maybe 1'4 inch beyond. I used a lathe, but a hacksaw and file will work just as well. I've been very pleased with the result. Temps are far more accurate, and sunlight and whatever heat escapes from the engine does not interfer with the accuracy of the probe. If you still have that sleeve, maybe you should give it a try. If I were to install a temp probe again, I would stick it in the wheel well, or under the wing somewhere.

Dave Gitelman

Don and Dave, my JPI probe has a sleeve around it similar to what you are describing on the meat style OAT. Also mine is installed on the copilot side on the bottom of the fuselage close to the center of the wing. Not sure how much the exhaust on the pilot side would affect the temp. I am thinking of installing a back up OAT so I can check mine.

 

Thanks

Mark

Hi All,

 

Thanks for your responses.

Just had a quote back from one of the larger avionics shops here in NZ; about NZD 4000 for the 930 install. That seems pretty good although I guess I'm dealing with 4 cylinders and two tanks as opposed to 6 cylinders and four tanks as with the -250.

It seems almost universally accepted that mounting the -930 in the stack is a bad idea. Point(s) taken; I'll have a re-think. Possibly recutting the right panel (Ron and John's) and mounting it there might be the best solution.

Mark - The current panel is the top panel; the mockup is just google sketchup. I was trying to get away with using the current panel and blocking up the spare holes; maybe that'll have to change. The current engine instruments are OK although the MAP is 'sticky' and the fuel qty is virtually useless; really only indicates full or empty. I also find the parallax error irritating. The main reason for an engine monitor is a way for me to rationalise the single engine safety aspect of what we all do here. I should say that the majority of my flying experience has been in jets of one kind or another and I find it somewhat disconcerting to be trusting my safety to second guessing a single piston engine and 50yr old gauges. Why the -930? The main reason is that it is STC'd primary and includes functions like carb temp etc which means everything is monitored and alarmed and clears a lot of panel space. It is more of an integrated system warning panel than solely an EDM.

Regarding the Garmin GPS's. Although they are obviously a great unit they are of 'limited' added value down here in NZ. We don't have WAAS, XM or even ADS-B so apart from GPSS (I don't have an autopilot) and visualising holds and procedure turns I'm not sure that they add much over my existing GX50. Also, if the box fails then you lose a lot of gear in one hit. If I get the Aspen then I have a moving map (of sorts). Having said that I have been offered a second hand 430W which I may look at.

Zach- Thanks for that. It's just google sketchup cutting (and pasting) at the moment but having the stack below the yokes is obviously not a smart thing to do. Cheers.

Thanks again for your inputs. All the suggestions are very welcome and very helpful.

Cheers,

James.

Gee I had same problem with Temp readings on my bird.I got the meat probe and left it LONG and did a different test.Back in 06 I got a divorce and had to buy my plane from my wife so I called her and said I need a hand.Low and be hold she came to airport to help me.I told her to sit on wing as i needed to do a test with the temp probe. AS she sat on the wing I added full power watching her eyes bulge wide open.I climbed to 3 thousand thinking how heart less she was in the divorce and for making me buy all my toys back and much more ,she even told the judge i shorted her 32 cents in something.She yelled what do you want me to do? I said put the probe where its warm and out of engine heat slip stream. Guess what? the temp gauge went to 98.6 and worked perfect. I looked at her and said today is my day and lowered the wing .......Now I fly with a smile and don't even worry if the gauge is off.. EDDIE