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Prebuy Insp near KATL

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Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby Cliff Biggs » Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:59 am

OK new guy here
If one needed a prebuy on a 30 by a good shop near ATL, where might one go? Say north through SE of ATL 100 miles.
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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby N3322G » Fri Dec 31, 2010 2:20 pm

Hi Cliff and welcome to the ICS Forum,

 

I live too far west to know the shops in you area so you might try contacting your tribe Rep - she can be found under the ICS Reports Tab from the home page or click here and scroll down. http://www.comancheflyer.com/NS/bod_list.php

or you might try under the members Tab, click Pathfinder and use GA as a search criteria - 45 hits. If you don't already know, N numbers ending in Y are usually twins - this is more hit or miss but lets you know there are a bunch of Comanche owners close-by.

Glad you are using ICS to find a qualified person for the pre-buy. If you don't find a local shop, I'd pay to fly in one of the ICS tech directors or Tim Talley from Clifton Aero to do the pre-buy - that expense would be small compared to a first really expensive annual. Don't know if 400 owner Matt Kurke from Naples, FL would be interested at www.Comanchegear.com - he'll tell you if not.

Hope this helps.

Pat

 

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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby Kristin Winter » Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:54 pm

I rhink Paul New is in Jackson, TN, I don't thonk you will find anyone that close to ATL that knows enough about Comanches to do a proper pre-buy.
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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby David Pyle » Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:36 pm

Cliff,

 

Kristin and Pat know much more about maintenance than I do. As a new ICS member near Atlanta your Tribe Chief is Sally Williams, and ICS president is Bernie Mazurek, both live in Florida and could likely suggest a Comanche specialist near you. Sally's phone is 561 625 0313 and she can put you in touch with Bernie. Actually they are meeting today in Palm Beach with tribe members to celebrate New Years and plan for the 2011 ICS convention in Savannah. If convenient let me know the TC you are considering. I try to keep track of Comanches for sale. I'm in Houston.

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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby Cliff Biggs » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:59 am

Thanks folks for the quick replies.
I currently own and fly a Mooney C model and need to move to a TC for a variety of reasons. Have been looking and studying for 2 years so I know them fairly well. I am also a 40 yr+ A&P and retired corp and airline driver. I guess I should have offered a little more info in my first post. I live out west in AZ and am looking at one near ATL so I can't attend to the inspection myself. Can anyone tell me if there is a codified prebuy inspection item list for TCs? Not just a normal annual list but something geared to just TCs and specific items that are problematic? Like the #12 inspection panels on the bottom of each wing for spar corrosion issues and the tail yoke and tube issues. I have all the ADs of course. Just want to check it against what I have been recording for a while.
Again thanks for all the helpful ideas.
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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby Zach Grant L1011jock » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:45 pm

Cliff,
There is no "official" prebuy list, however the most obvious items are usually the items that cause the most damage, when improperly attended too. These are the Landing gear system, and the fuel system. Twin Comanches are pretty robust and don't have many issues with the airframe (other than possible firewall cracking where the engine mount attaches). There will probably be some small cracks in the upper wing skins. They will not grow once the stress has been relieved (stringers weren't attached to some ribs), and general practice is to leave them alone. Pitch Horn cracking is a non issue with the thick walled torque tube (all twins/400s were built with the thick walled tube). The lower spar corrosion has not been found to be an big issue on the Comanche series due to extensive corrosion proofing at the factory. Pitch trim tab actuation system should have no play in it. Set trim to neutral. Stand aft of the stabilator, push down on trailing edge of stab just in front of trim tab and deliberately move the trim tab up and down with the other hand. A small bit of linkage lash is acceptable, but any large movement, including translation of the jack screw spool (trim drum) in the cage is not acceptable. Also check the solidity of the tail attachment by standing at the tip of the stab, and moving it up down, forward and back while feeling for any movement, listening for any squeek, clunk or grind. This should be done in a quiet atmosphere, as this is very subtle sometimes. Any of these would need to be investigated further. Check the control cable tension. This is often a neglected item.

 

Landing gear needs to be rigged correctly with no perceptable slop in any bushings or linkages. It needs to be properly rigged with the correct preload set. Limit switches must be set correctly, wiring in good shape and properly routed. The transmission needs to be smooth, serviced and not loose. The AD 77-13-21 is a 3 part AD. Many do not realize this and simply sign it off as complied with when the bungees are replaced. Beware of para. C that requires 1000 hr interval inspection of the entire system. Check that all of the springs are in good condition (many have not been changed in a while. Service manual says to change main gear springs when bungees are changed). All of this is easy to do, but it is best done by someone who knows what to look for.

Fuel system. Bladders leak becuase most people don't fill the tanks all the way up! Capacity is only accurate if the aircraft is leveled (aircraft does not sit level), AND the tank is filled all the way up, as in overflowing. The bottom of the filler neck is about 4 gallons short of full. Fill the tanks up, and you will find the leaks. If you have tip tanks, check the fuel valve solenoid for proper operation. Also check to see if the flexible fuel line from the tip to the hard line in the wing is leaking or has been changed since install (many haven't and leak or will colapse once the tank is about half full and begins to suction feed vs gravity feed). Take very thorough fuel samples. If you find ANY black specks, you will need to change the bladders, and possibly have other fuel system problems such as fuel servo malfunction, and plugging injectors. Rubber dust can find its way through every screen and filter on the plane. Fuel valves. These have a good service history, but after 40 yrs the cad plating is somewhat sketchy. Many have shown internal corrosion where the plating is worn off. You can inspect them by removing the sump bowl, and bypass valve. If you see any corrosion, send them to webco for service. They will replate, rebuild, and it will be almost like new. Also new PMA units made from stainless are available from Parker Hannifin.

These are the biggies. The rest is pretty straight forward Lycoming, Hartzell, and AC-43-13 stuff.

-Zach

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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby David Pyle » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:36 pm

Zach,

 

Wow! That is some list. If you were doing the prebuy inspection how long might that take...assuming that no major issues are found?

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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby Zach Grant L1011jock » Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:47 pm

About 15 minutes once the plane was on jacks....The inspection is easy and quick. Fixing the problems found take a bit longer. When we do "tech" inspections, it takes about 1 hr per aircraft, roll in to roll out. A thorough prebuy is about 4-6 hrs depending on documentation, plus an inflight operational verification check.
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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby MULEFLY » Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:13 pm

Most prebuys look exclusively at the airframe. After my last purchase I decided "if I ever do that again"... I would also spend a couple hundred bucks and have an avionics tech give it a check out too. Autopilots, etc... are expensive repairs... having a knowledgeable Avionics tech check out the systems would be a good thing!
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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby Kristin Winter » Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:47 pm

Avionics is one of the big reasons that I do a flight test wtih every pre-buy inspection that I do, assuming of course that the buyer doesn't walk away based on what is found before that. All the avionics should be checked for functionality. Beyond that, you are looking at a bit more money to have an avionics shop bench check everything.

 

My typical pre-buy starts out with a debate over whether it wouldn't just be better to do an annual. But an annual, even by a knowledgeable Comanche mechanic, doesn't check the avionics or flight test the plane. Once we get by, I usually have the seller telling me that it has been maintained by a mechanic who has been maintaining Comanches for 40 years and has owned them himself. The implication is that this is a waste of time. Almost invariably, I walk over to the tail and check the tab free-play, which is out of spec, often by a whole lot. About a third to half the time, I find blue stains under the wings, or in the wing root area. You gotta know where to look if the seller has cleaned the blue stains off the underside of the wing.

I commonly find bearings loose in the Dura landing gear transmissions and varying amount of slop in some of the bushings/bolts in the gear. The landing gear assist springs are usually a horror show, even when maintained by a so-called 40 year "Comanche Expert".

You should get someone who really knows the aircraft to look at it even if you have to bear the cost of flying someone in or flying the aircraft somewhere. 99.99% of the mechanics will miss big stuff on a Comanche. Unless you are working with them all the time and flying them yourself, and I might add keeping up with the latest developments in the fleet (think rudder hinge brackets) you will almost surely miss significant stuff.

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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby David Pyle » Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:33 pm

These considerations would appear to narrow the field for those facilities one could trust for a buyer inspection. No debate. Do you or ICS or anyone have an "approved" list? If not, wouldn't this be a good project for the ICS Fleet Airworthiness Committee. I believe Zach is on that committee as are others who have a good Comanche inspection reputation.
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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby Scott Ducey » Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:41 pm

im not the technical person that zach and kristin are, but i have found the guide that Bill Creech put together to be a pretty good buy and informative. i believe it is still for sale on this web site.

 

good luck, the pa-30 is a great plane. i own one.

best regards,

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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby Zach Grant L1011jock » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:00 pm

Dave,
We have not published an "approved" list for a variety of reasons including liability, consensus etc. Instead ICS has and is continuing (no doubt some day may change) to follow the path of allowing members and owners to make their recommendations good or bad, available through sights such as this and COF. We all have opinions, and it is much easier to credit or discount a singular oppinion than to blame an entire Society one way or the other. I beleive the folks that are on here helping others are very concious of not being self serving. I have not seen any cases of free advertising abuse on this sight. Usually only a mention of good faith help is profered. SO, it is tough for us to recommend any specific shop, though one of the most asked question is "whats a good shop near XYZ...). We can give you some options of those shops others have had good luck with if they have given feedback, or shops that are the only ones that do a specific function, or are a regional "hub" of Comanche activity. Other than that there are way too many variables to keep track of for all the independents and shops in this world.
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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby David Pyle » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:15 pm

Zach,

 

I get it. Problem is no one has answered Mr. Biggs initial question either here, or at COF. Seems like short of a "recommendation" someone should.

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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby Kristin Winter » Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:05 pm

I think he got his answer. No one knows of a good facility close to ATL.
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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby David Pyle » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:38 am

That's apparent. I will try to find ICS members we know who are in that general area who might be helpful.

The TC interest is in South Carolina. There are 23 SC members. The Theiler's 260C is for sale in Spartanburg.

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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby Kristin Winter » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:39 am

He is about a month too early, as I am likely to be in the southeast in early February and could probably help out.
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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby Alan Cheak » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:10 am

Cliff:

I own a '63 Comanche 250 here in Peachtree City (KFFC) located about 30 miles south of Hartzfield. There is a good size shop here called GARDNER AVIATION.
500 Aviation Way, Peachtree City, GA. Phone is 866-486-6061 or 770-486-6061. They did a complete panel redo on my Comanche with a complete Garmin stack. Price was fair. I had them then do an annual and I got way over charged. They do good work but I tend to use them on smaller items to be fixed. I had a cylinder go bad and the seal between the carb and case leak this past summer and that cost to fix all that was 4 grand. Ask for Carl the owner. I've seen several Comanches both single and twins in there shop before. Give me a call or email me if you want more info.

Sincerely Alan Cheak

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C: 678-923-8465

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Will be out of the country Jan 8 till 14th

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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby Rich Roberson » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:09 am

ATL is an airline hub. Fly someone in? I like Bill Turley at Aircraft Engineering in Bartow Fl
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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby David Pyle » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:20 am

Not to end our recommendations, but the TC under consideration is in Greensville SC and we have identified a shop nearby in Spartanburg SC for a pre-buy if the buyer wants it. I know Bill Turley is an expert...just not very close.
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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby Kristin Winter » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:44 am

Close but do they know anything about Comanches?

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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby David Pyle » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:44 pm

Don't really know, but this A&P has worked on the Theiler's 260C since they bought it, and he said OK to a TC pre-buy.

Not sure where the TC interest stands. Suggest we wait to see what Cliff decides.

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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby Fred Benson » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:38 am

Cliff: I live in Peachtree City (15nm S of ATL) and have owned a PA-30 for over 9 years. I am an A&P/IA and have a hangar at KFFC. Will be starting an annual on mine in the next month and will be happy to assist you with your pre buy, or give you some pointers over the phone. I do not take in outside work but enjoy helping those who are conscientious and want to learn to know their airplane.

Whatever you do, follow the advice of owners, don't just pick a shop that is convenient, our comanches are unique!

Give a call if you'd like to chat.

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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby Cliff Biggs » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:58 am

Please let me chime back in and let all know what has been going on since I started my TC search. The search is still on and I have actually gone and looked at 5 different airframes. None have met my and my partner's needs. In addition, I am involved with building a new FBO/Jet Center, (will open in 30 days), flying a Pt 91 MU2 on 4 trips and having to go to SFAR training on the MU, doing Part 139 FBO/Airport Fueling qualification and training, as the only A&P at our airport that knows anything about the MU2, I've had to perform maintenance on it 4 times this month, finalizing a 135 helicopter charter certificate for the FBO with the Feds, and, also moving into a new home. None the less, we are still in the hunt. We have mutually agreed to find one with tip tanks and 66 or newer for 6 seats. Yes I know, 6 seats may not be usable but the MU2 owner may want to have me pick up him and his family (2 very small kids) so the 6 seats (5) would be used on short trips. I would prefer dual brakes for the FBO flight training. I have made arrangements to be at the Tribe fly-in in Lake Havasu City, AZ in a couple of weeks to help with inspections so I can become more knowledgable on the pertinant issues. We have learned so much since we started and most of it has come from all you folks.
This forum is by far the best one I have ever been involved with for the help everyone is willing to provide. Thank you all for your ideas and support. If I can ever return the favor I most cetainly will. More later.
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Re: Prebuy Insp near KATL

Postby N3322G » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:58 am

Cliff,

So good to see your post. Good group in Southern California. You should have fun in addition to learning more. If it hasn't been mentioned before, be sure to take the CPPP course when you get your Twin. It has gotten stellar reviews from all manner of experienced pilots and Comanche owners.

Pat

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