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Re: Starter

by Alan Cheak » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:02 pm

Andrew:

Had the same problem several years and I flew my '63/250 out to WEBCO to have the entire starting system checked out. After figuring out that once again my new magnaflux starter was bad, Bob talked me into a B&C starter. I've never had a problem since. Others on this forum will say they love there SkyTec's. I have read a few times of people complaining that every once in a while there SkyTec would give them a problem. Never have I read or heard of a problem with a B&C starter. In fact I love my starter so much, that when I do my engine I intend to keep my B&C and put it on the new engine or keep it as a spare.

Alan

Last edited by Alan Cheak on Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Starter

by N3322G » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:04 pm

Andrew,

I'm a sky-tec fan. Have them on both engines. Nice to have two good options isn't it?

Pat

Patricia Jayne (Pat) Keefer ICS 08899
PA-39 #10 Texas

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Re: Starter

by Andrew Foster » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:53 pm

Alan,

Had the same issues with the mangnafux, been leaning towards the b&c. Do you know if any modifications are needed? Or is it plug and play

Thanks
Andrew

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Posts: 161

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Re: Starter

by Matt Bogard » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:52 pm

Put on a Skytec just in the last month. Along with the Bogert copper battery cables it throws the prop so fast you can almost taxi on the starter alone!

Posts: 110

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Re: Starter

by Zach Grant L1011jock » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:46 pm

Skytec NL will bolt up with no mods to the forward baffle or power cable length. It is not as light as the really light weight starters, but it still saves almost 10 lbs.
-Zach

"Keep it above 5 feet and don't do nuthin dumb!"

Zach Grant L1011jock

Technical Advisor

Posts: 1404

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Re: Starter

by Matt Bogard » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:51 pm

We did have to find about 1.4" in battery cable length. My Bogert copper cable was run nearly perfectly for the old starter so we had to adjust a few Adel clamps holding it but it worked fine. From what I remember on the weight and balance it's only about 5 pounds lighter than the old one but the performance was my main reason for doing it.

Posts: 110

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:47 pm

Location: Omaha, NE

Re: Starter

by Alan Cheak » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:22 pm

Andrew:

I do know that the SkyTec starter is a true bolt on replacement. As for the B&C I do recall that Bob and the boys from WEBCO had to use a metal grinder on some part of either the airframe or engine casing. I was to scared to look so I just walked around the shop looking at other Comanches. However, I was comfortable in knowing that they knew what they were doing. A simple phone call to WEBCO could answer any questions. Again, I love my B&C so much I'm taking it with me when I replace the engine. A B&C starter, or SkyTec coupled with a Concorde battery is a combination that cannot be beat.

Alan

Last edited by Alan Cheak on Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Starter

by Don Nelson » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:07 pm

Hi Andrew,
I installed a B&C starter on my (then) 250 about 10 years ago, partially because of wanting to support them, who had been supporting ICS with Flyer advertising, but also due to having good reports on theirs.
At the same time I found I could shorten my Bogert copper cable a foot by moving it from behind and up the left engine side, over to the right and across the engine lower front.

I ran into one effect of the B&C installation tho, in later installation of a 3-Blade McCaulley prop. Turned out the control cable to the governor hardware was not compatible in its attachment to the B&C starter.
The fix was to use Mooney bell crank hardware, and run the control cable over top of the engine left side cylinders - which I ended up liking better anyway.

Having said all that, I so far find no fault with the Sky Tec starters my (now, 2 yrs) Miller Twin has.

So, as the saying goes, "you pays your money, and takes your choice".
Of course after weighing all the info! (-:'

Best regards, Don

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Posts: 312

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Re: Starter

by N3322G » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:34 pm

Don makes a good point on supporting ICS advertisers. I checked before I posted, both Sky-Tec and B&C support the fleet with ICS ads.

Pat

Patricia Jayne (Pat) Keefer ICS 08899
PA-39 #10 Texas

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Re: Starter

by Andrew Foster » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:39 am

Started doing the install on saturday. Had to remove the left forward baffling, oil cooler, and alternator to get to the starter bolts. The new B&C bolts up a bit easier than the stock prestolite. Easier to get the nuts started. The outer casing of the B&C does hit the oil coller/ propcontroll bracket. A minor modification and easy as it was off the engine anyway. We also had to shorten a bracket that runs from the starter to the alternator, Again a very easy task. I talked to Lamar about soilenoids. They gave me a great troubleshhot technique for soiloinds health. During cranking connect one lead of your volt meter to one side of the soilnoid, and one lead to the other side. It is obvioulsy not +/- specific. Your volt meter will now read any voltage drop during operation. If the drop is great than .2 volts the soilonoid needs replacing. Going to finsih up on Sat and will post the results.

Andrew
61 250

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Posts: 161

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Re: Starter

by Andrew Foster » Sun May 05, 2013 1:56 pm

Finished the install yesterday. In all two solid 8 hour days. I found when bolting the oil cooler up it too hit the casing on the starter. The solution was to move the oil cooler about 1/4 " to the left side by redrilling the holes in the oil cooler flange. That way the bracket for the prop controll cable still is in line. I cleaned up all the conections with sandpaper. Also cleaned the ground stap conections as well. We replaced the starter soiloind. I should mention we do have the bogart cables. It now spins very fast. Mission accomplished.
I do have one question. Thier is a diode wire from the switch side of the soilonoid to ground. Does anyone know the function of this?
Thanks
Andrew

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Posts: 161

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:22 pm

Re: Starter

by Hank Spellman » Sun May 05, 2013 6:23 pm

The short answer is that it helps prevent arcing at the face of the solenoid.

The long answer is not so simple, (although this explanation is simplified). The starter motor is a very large inductive load. Inductors have the characteristic of allowing direct current to pass with minimum obstruction but to obstruct the passage of alternating current, with the obstruction increasing as the frequency increases. What is actually happening when the starter solenoid first connects is the the battery sees a short circuit and delivers a huge current (typically 5 times or more than the running current) until the magnetic fields in the motor build. This all happens so fast that mechanical meters can't react fast enough it really show it. The motor sees the leading edge of the current as the first part of a cycle of alternating current with a very high frequency, even though it is really direct current. However, this part of the scenario is not the problem.

The real problem comes when the starter solenoid disconnects and the current stops abruptly. The magnet fields in the starter are at full strength and contain a large amount of energy. Then the current stops, the fields start to collapse, but the energy has nowhere to go. Also, the collapsing magnetic field causes the voltage in the windings motor to go really high. The path of least resistance is through the barely open contacts of the solenoid, so the energy jumps that gap in the form of an arc which is hot enough to melt the surface of the contacts and leave pits and spikes on the surface of the contacts. Eventually, the surface will become rough enough that the inrush current will weld the contacts together so the the starter motor runs continuously until it is hot enough to burn or melt, leading at all sorts of unpleasantness and expense.

The diode gives the energy of the collapsing magnetic field somewhere to go besides back through the solenoid contacts.

Hank
Henry A. Spellman
(an electrical engineer in another life)

Hank Spellman

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Re: Starter

by N3322G » Sun May 05, 2013 7:04 pm

Hank - by golly, you are an EE AND have a great sense of humor - didn't know that could happen. Just teasing. Apologies for thread creep but couldn't resist after that superb description.

Seriously, nice to have a person with such skills share them with others. Thanks.

Pat

Patricia Jayne (Pat) Keefer ICS 08899
PA-39 #10 Texas

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Re: Starter

by Andrew Foster » Sun May 05, 2013 8:04 pm

Hank,
Thanks so much for the useful information . I'll leave as is. Is their a way to test to see if the diode is working ?

Andrew

Andrew Foster: ICS member; Posts: 161; Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:22 pm

Starter

by Andrew Foster » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:25 am

Hello all,
our prestolite starter is giving up the ghost.... 61 250 0540
would like to go with a lightwight/high speed replacement. Which unit do you recommend?
skytec or B&C, pros, cons of each? thanks

Andrew
7533P

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Re: Starter

by Alan Cheak » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:02 pm

Andrew:

Had the same problem several years and I flew my '63/250 out to WEBCO to have the entire starting system checked out. After figuring out that once again my new magnaflux starter was bad, Bob talked me into a B&C starter. I've never had a problem since. Others on this forum will say they love there SkyTec's. I have read a few times of people complaining that every once in a while there SkyTec would give them a problem. Never have I read or heard of a problem with a B&C starter. In fact I love my starter so much, that when I do my engine I intend to keep my B&C and put it on the new engine or keep it as a spare.

Alan

Last edited by Alan Cheak on Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Starter

by N3322G » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:04 pm

Andrew,

I'm a sky-tec fan. Have them on both engines. Nice to have two good options isn't it?

Pat

Patricia Jayne (Pat) Keefer ICS 08899
PA-39 #10 Texas

ICS member

Posts: 1911

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Re: Starter

by Andrew Foster » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:53 pm

Alan,

Had the same issues with the mangnafux, been leaning towards the b&c. Do you know if any modifications are needed? Or is it plug and play

Thanks
Andrew

ICS member

Posts: 161

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:22 pm

Re: Starter

by Matt Bogard » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:52 pm

Put on a Skytec just in the last month. Along with the Bogert copper battery cables it throws the prop so fast you can almost taxi on the starter alone!

Posts: 110

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:47 pm

Location: Omaha, NE

Re: Starter

by Zach Grant L1011jock » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:46 pm

Skytec NL will bolt up with no mods to the forward baffle or power cable length. It is not as light as the really light weight starters, but it still saves almost 10 lbs.
-Zach

"Keep it above 5 feet and don't do nuthin dumb!"

Zach Grant L1011jock

Technical Advisor

Posts: 1404

Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:35 pm

Location: Indianapolis KEYE

Re: Starter

by Matt Bogard » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:51 pm

We did have to find about 1.4" in battery cable length. My Bogert copper cable was run nearly perfectly for the old starter so we had to adjust a few Adel clamps holding it but it worked fine. From what I remember on the weight and balance it's only about 5 pounds lighter than the old one but the performance was my main reason for doing it.

Posts: 110

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:47 pm

Location: Omaha, NE

Re: Starter

by Alan Cheak » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:22 pm

Andrew:

I do know that the SkyTec starter is a true bolt on replacement. As for the B&C I do recall that Bob and the boys from WEBCO had to use a metal grinder on some part of either the airframe or engine casing. I was to scared to look so I just walked around the shop looking at other Comanches. However, I was comfortable in knowing that they knew what they were doing. A simple phone call to WEBCO could answer any questions. Again, I love my B&C so much I'm taking it with me when I replace the engine. A B&C starter, or SkyTec coupled with a Concorde battery is a combination that cannot be beat.

Alan

Last edited by Alan Cheak on Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

A good loser... is still a loser.

ICS member

Posts: 142

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Re: Starter

by Don Nelson » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:07 pm

Hi Andrew,
I installed a B&C starter on my (then) 250 about 10 years ago, partially because of wanting to support them, who had been supporting ICS with Flyer advertising, but also due to having good reports on theirs.
At the same time I found I could shorten my Bogert copper cable a foot by moving it from behind and up the left engine side, over to the right and across the engine lower front.

I ran into one effect of the B&C installation tho, in later installation of a 3-Blade McCaulley prop. Turned out the control cable to the governor hardware was not compatible in its attachment to the B&C starter.
The fix was to use Mooney bell crank hardware, and run the control cable over top of the engine left side cylinders - which I ended up liking better anyway.

Having said all that, I so far find no fault with the Sky Tec starters my (now, 2 yrs) Miller Twin has.

So, as the saying goes, "you pays your money, and takes your choice".
Of course after weighing all the info! (-:'

Best regards, Don

Don Nelson

ICS member

Posts: 312

Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2003 5:57 pm

Location: Burlington, Washington; KBVS

Re: Starter

by N3322G » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:34 pm

Don makes a good point on supporting ICS advertisers. I checked before I posted, both Sky-Tec and B&C support the fleet with ICS ads.

Pat

Patricia Jayne (Pat) Keefer ICS 08899
PA-39 #10 Texas

ICS member

Posts: 1911

Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:58 pm

Location: Fort Worth, Texas area

Re: Starter

by Andrew Foster » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:39 am

Started doing the install on saturday. Had to remove the left forward baffling, oil cooler, and alternator to get to the starter bolts. The new B&C bolts up a bit easier than the stock prestolite. Easier to get the nuts started. The outer casing of the B&C does hit the oil coller/ propcontroll bracket. A minor modification and easy as it was off the engine anyway. We also had to shorten a bracket that runs from the starter to the alternator, Again a very easy task. I talked to Lamar about soilenoids. They gave me a great troubleshhot technique for soiloinds health. During cranking connect one lead of your volt meter to one side of the soilnoid, and one lead to the other side. It is obvioulsy not +/- specific. Your volt meter will now read any voltage drop during operation. If the drop is great than .2 volts the soilonoid needs replacing. Going to finsih up on Sat and will post the results.

Andrew
61 250

ICS member

Posts: 161

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:22 pm

Re: Starter

by Andrew Foster » Sun May 05, 2013 1:56 pm

Finished the install yesterday. In all two solid 8 hour days. I found when bolting the oil cooler up it too hit the casing on the starter. The solution was to move the oil cooler about 1/4 " to the left side by redrilling the holes in the oil cooler flange. That way the bracket for the prop controll cable still is in line. I cleaned up all the conections with sandpaper. Also cleaned the ground stap conections as well. We replaced the starter soiloind. I should mention we do have the bogart cables. It now spins very fast. Mission accomplished.
I do have one question. Thier is a diode wire from the switch side of the soilonoid to ground. Does anyone know the function of this?
Thanks
Andrew

ICS member

Posts: 161

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:22 pm

Re: Starter

by Hank Spellman » Sun May 05, 2013 6:23 pm

The short answer is that it helps prevent arcing at the face of the solenoid.

The long answer is not so simple, (although this explanation is simplified). The starter motor is a very large inductive load. Inductors have the characteristic of allowing direct current to pass with minimum obstruction but to obstruct the passage of alternating current, with the obstruction increasing as the frequency increases. What is actually happening when the starter solenoid first connects is the the battery sees a short circuit and delivers a huge current (typically 5 times or more than the running current) until the magnetic fields in the motor build. This all happens so fast that mechanical meters can't react fast enough it really show it. The motor sees the leading edge of the current as the first part of a cycle of alternating current with a very high frequency, even though it is really direct current. However, this part of the scenario is not the problem.

The real problem comes when the starter solenoid disconnects and the current stops abruptly. The magnet fields in the starter are at full strength and contain a large amount of energy. Then the current stops, the fields start to collapse, but the energy has nowhere to go. Also, the collapsing magnetic field causes the voltage in the windings motor to go really high. The path of least resistance is through the barely open contacts of the solenoid, so the energy jumps that gap in the form of an arc which is hot enough to melt the surface of the contacts and leave pits and spikes on the surface of the contacts. Eventually, the surface will become rough enough that the inrush current will weld the contacts together so the the starter motor runs continuously until it is hot enough to burn or melt, leading at all sorts of unpleasantness and expense.

The diode gives the energy of the collapsing magnetic field somewhere to go besides back through the solenoid contacts.

Hank
Henry A. Spellman
(an electrical engineer in another life)

Hank Spellman

Moderator

Posts: 120

Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2000 3:13 am

Location: Lincoln, IL

Re: Starter

by N3322G » Sun May 05, 2013 7:04 pm

Hank - by golly, you are an EE AND have a great sense of humor - didn't know that could happen. Just teasing. Apologies for thread creep but couldn't resist after that superb description.

Seriously, nice to have a person with such skills share them with others. Thanks.

Pat

Patricia Jayne (Pat) Keefer ICS 08899
PA-39 #10 Texas

ICS member

Posts: 1911

Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:58 pm

Location: Fort Worth, Texas area

Re: Starter

by Andrew Foster » Sun May 05, 2013 8:04 pm

Hank,
Thanks so much for the useful information . I'll leave as is. Is their a way to test to see if the diode is working ?

Andrew

Andrew Foster: ICS member; Posts: 161; Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:22 pm

Re: Starter

by SLIMDREDGER » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:31 am

Copper cables and SkyTechs on my PA30 for about 15 years. Never a problem. They spin the props almost fast enough to taxi. AHP

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Re: Starter

by Charles Schefer » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:31 pm

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Re: Starter

by Matt Bogard » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:37 pm

I believe I have the NL on my 250. And the copper cables. Damn good starter.

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Re: Starter

by N3322G » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:48 pm

Matt - thx for the giggle - since my Twin has two NLs, guess I have d___ d___ good starters. :-)

Pat

Patricia Jayne (Pat) Keefer ICS 08899
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Re: Starter

by Charles Schefer » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:18 pm

Update on this thread... I've been looking into Hartzell E-Drive and X-Drive starters. While both are listed for the PA-30 in their application chart , it turns out only the E-Drive is actually PMA approved for the the IO-320-B1A engine. The E-Drive starter is PMA approved for the -B1A engine but the X-Drive starter is not.

I called Hartzell engine tech and spoke with "Tommy" in their tech support and he confirmed this. Only the E-Drive is PMA for the IO-320-B1A. The X-Drive may fit but would not be a straight legal replacement without a field approval. He also commented that he felt of the two the E-Drive was the better starter. He said they use the same motor (E and X drive) but the E-Drive is built stronger and has a ratchet system in the drive mechanism to prevents damage from a kickback during starting. It is however heavier than the X drive and Sky-Tec options (but only 0.2lbs heavier than the Sky-Tec NL).

Here's a quick comparison chart I put together. I've greyed out the X-Drive due to non-PMA. Prices are based on current pricing thru Aircraft Spruce.

- Charles

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Re: Starter

by Timothy Poole » Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:21 am

Hey Charles -- I talked to Hartzell today and they think they could actually just have a documentation problem on their end (which would not be a first.) The SRZ-9031 is the same starter as the SRZ-9021 (which is PMA approved), the solenoid is just on the opposite side for applications like the PA-30/39 which, as you pointed out, are clearly listed on their aircraft applicability chart . I'm sending them the info we have and they plan to get back to me early next week with a clarification.

Tim

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Re: Starter

by Charles Schefer » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:09 am

Tim, that's great news. FWIW I suggested to them that it might be a documentation issue. The guy I talked to said it wasn't but I pointed out they have the X in the application guide and should either get it on the PMA list or remove it from the guide.

- Charles

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Re: Starter

by Timothy Poole » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:28 am

Timothy Poole

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Re: Starter

by Charles Schefer » Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:03 pm

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Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:09 pm

Re: Starter

by Charles Schefer » Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:22 am

Well, yesterday I pulled the trigger and picked up two new Sky-Tec 149-NL starters. Today I ordered the full Bogert copper cable kit for my PA-30 including the APU cable. I already have the Bogert battery box and battery cables. While we're at it I'm going to replace all the alternator wiring too so Bogert is making up those for me as well.

While there appear to be three very good starter brand options; Sky-Tec, B&C and Hartzell (formerly Kelley Aerospace) my decision came down to the following:

1) While I had read a lot about problems with Sky-Tec starters on-line, as I dug further, in 99% of the cases the problems were with the super light "flyweight" starters and not the heavy-duty high torque NL model.

2) Everyone I talked to with NLs was happy. A local flight school here at HEF has gone to them exclusively and over a number of years has had great success.

3) A local engine shop I have a personal connection to who has an excellent reputation and has been building engines for (I think) 30 years put's NLs on ALL their new engine builds and says they have never had one come back with a problem.

4) I never called B&C but between Hartzell and Sky-Tec I found Sky-Tec to be much more informative, engaging, and helpful on the phone. This is not intended as a knock on Hartzell - they were very pleasant to deal with I just found Sky-Tec to be far more engaging and enthusiastic about their product.

5) Sky-Tec supports the ICS thru advertising in the Flyer.

Edited to add 6, and 7...

6) I compared the Sky-Tec NL to the Hartzell E-Drive. They seem pretty comparable. The E-Drive has a clever clutch system that is designed to handle a kickback should one occur. If a kickback occurs the clutch protects the starter and the flywheel and Hartzell actually offers a warranty that includes kickback protection (the only manufacturer that does I think). The E-Drive is slightly more expensive and slightly heavier (negligibly so) than the Sky-Tec NL. By contract the Sky-Tec NL simply has a shear pin in the drive - a designed weak point. If a kickback were to occur, the shear pin would break before anything else. The flight school in #2 above said they can't remember ever having to replace a shear pin. While there is a first time for everything (touch wood), I've never had a kick back and am adamant about keeping mag time perfect. On the Cirrus we have starter adapters between the starter and the engine. It's not quite the same as the Hartzell clutch but it acts in a similar way and we've had routine problems with the Continental starter adapters and found them expensive to replace. So... all the above said, I am a fan of "simple" and the simple shear pin approach appealed to me over the clutch system idea. Tho if I end up breaking a shear pin on a trip I am sure I will wish I had the E-Drive ... this brings me to one last point...

7) I spoke with a number of maintenance shops and all of them stock Sky-Tec NL starters. The ones I spoke to stocked nothing else (no other brands). So safety in numbers... if I did need a new starter in the field (shear pin or complete starter) I'd be more likely to find a spare Sky-Tec at the local FBO or repair station.

So I think that there is no wrong decision here but I decided to go with the Sky-Tec NLs.

- Charles

Last edited by Charles Schefer on Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Starter

by N3322G » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:34 pm

Charles,

As always, good research and thanks for sharing your thought process. I'm also a fan of the Sky-Tec business attitude. I especially like their trouble-shooting website advice - saved me from bad advice on how to fix a problem once from a non-Clifton mechanic.

Pat

Patricia Jayne (Pat) Keefer ICS 08899
PA-39 #10 Texas

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