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Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
- Ray B
- ICS member
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Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
I'll be very interested in what's happening. Ken saw a clip on Blackstone oil analysis company a while back and we've been using it ever since because they actually give you words on what is 'going on' in the engine - like after one change ... 'this will probably clean up in the next change because of the circumstances you cited' and it did.
They send free sampler kits and then bill when you use them. http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ if you want to try them.
While I'd like to be able to answer your question, we haven't had this experience, so I hope this is of help to you.
Patricia Jayne (Pat) Keefer ICS 08899
PA-39 #10 Texas
N3322G- ICS member
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- Location: Fort Worth, Texas area
Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
- Ray B
- ICS member
- Posts: 144
- Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:02 am
Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
I guess I was asleep as I don't remember or did not catch the discussion about the oil. We use the shell 15w-50 because we thought it had the best additives BUT have read about the Cam Guard. My question is - was it a recommendation or general consensus among Comanche people that using the 100w with Cam Guard would be better for the engine? I too have ordered the Blackstone kit. Enjoyed meeting you and talking about the old war planes etc.
John
- John Wedge
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Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
After my engines were overhauled last year, and after consulting with a couple of IAs and two engine shops, the consensus opinion favored break in on straight mineral oil then after 50 hours going to Phillips 20W-50 plus CamGuard, which is what we've done. According to CamGuard there is no aviation oil out there with the same additive package.
Jay
PA 30 N7702Y
Jay- ICS member
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- Location: Portland, Oregon
Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
You may be cleaning a bit of stuff out of the engine, or you could be seeing the difference in the oil formulation, or it could be something else entirely. Using the proper oil for the temperature range is the key to all oil servicing. I do have to say I am not quite on board with the Philips XC 20-50 as it is a non ashless dispersant oil (multigrade, but straight mineral oil) and Lycoming specifically states that only Ashless Dispersant (AD) oil should be used after break in (and on the factory turbo engines, it says to use AD from first start). I am not an oil expert, but I believe that the Camguard additive does give some of the detergent qualities, but how well it suspends the impurities, I really don't know. I have seen several things from oil. Castrol Aviator is like the stuff they give you before a colonoscopy. If there is something in the engine, it will break it free, and pretty scarry at that. Aeroshell, is not the greatest at keeping things cleen, but seems to be consistant in not breaking up anything bad either. Camguard works great, but is an additive, it does not change all of the properties of a given type of oil. Exxon Elite is somewhere inbetween Aeroshell and Castrol, and I would not use it midstream. Start it in a new engine and you will be fine. As for running non AD oils in Lycomings. I wouldn't run them much more than 15-20 hrs between changes if it were up to me, and I wouldn't let it sit for more than a month or so. Too much stuff can settle out and plug up important nooks and crannys. Everyone has an oppinion on all of this. These are mine.
-Zach
Zach Grant L1011jock- Technical Advisor
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Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
- Ray B
- ICS member
- Posts: 144
- Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:02 am
Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
I just switched to phillips X/C in my 250 (from Castrol AD120, no longer produced). Here is a quote from the X/C sales blurb
"Phillips 66 X/C® Aviation Oil is an ashless dispersant, multigrade engine oil specifically formulated for year-round use in aircraft piston engines."
Am I completely out to lunch on the AD thing. If so, I am switching to something else next oil change!
Thanks
Jim
Jim Worley- ICS member
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Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
You are both right! Phillips makes 2 types of 20-50, The type A is AD and the Type M is not. In the 3 lycomings I have broken in I used the type M for the first 25 hrs then went to the type A in the first one and to aeroshell in the last 2. Truth be told I liked the Phillips better (can't explain why) but I'm following the expert advice.
Good luck, Don
- 9089P
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Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
Jay
PA 30 N7702Y
Jay- ICS member
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- Location: Portland, Oregon
Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
- Richard Andrews
- ICS member
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Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
- Ray B
- ICS member
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- Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:02 am
Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
-Zach
Zach Grant L1011jock- Technical Advisor
- Posts: 1404
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:35 pm
- Location: Indianapolis KEYE
Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
Check the oil suction screen on the sump as well. It probably will show more obstructions than the filter does if there has been crud cleaned out of the engine. You might also want to do a quick compression check to see if you might have a ring issue causing excessive blowby. I can't say I have seen the switch you made in oil make the oil this dark this soon without something else happening coincedently.
Zach
PS- Merry Christmas, and happy new year to all. Also, thanks for the cracked bungee arm.
Zach Grant L1011jock- Technical Advisor
- Posts: 1404
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- Location: Indianapolis KEYE
Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
- Ray B
- ICS member
- Posts: 144
- Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:02 am
Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
- Ray B
- ICS member
- Posts: 144
- Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:02 am
Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
My understanding of CamGuard having talked to many mechanics and engine shops of varying backgrounds over time is the plane should fly regularly and if so shouldn't have any issues with wear. I know, I know -- regularly is a vague term and not every can afford to simply fly their plane all the time. If it's only flying once per month (or less) then you definitely need the additive to help keep a protective film on the cam which prevents corrosion and eventual wear.
We run the Phillips 20W50 X/C exclusively in our entire fleet. Engine mix includes O-320-D2Js, IO-320-B1As in our PA-30, IO-360-CIC, IO-360-M1A, IO-360-L2A, and even the IO-240-B3 when I had the DA-20. I don't use CamGuard in any of these engines because they fly multiple times per week, with the 172s flying several sorties per day. We change oil and filters every 50 hours, take oil samples every 100 hrs, and knock on wood have not yet had a lubrication related problem with any of them. One of our O-320s is currently at 2300 SMOH and running perfectly fine.
In consultation with several engine shops (trust but verify) we are even using the Phillips now as the break in oil when we do our engine changes. We've done this twice now with our last two O-320 swaps and break in occurred without any drama and oil consumption stabilized within 12-15 hours each time.
Tim
Edit: I forgot to add, we are located in the mid-Atlantic (just outside of DC) and we run this oil year round.
Timothy Poole- Posts: 122
- Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:43 pm
- Location: KVKX
Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
I have Savvy Aircraft help manage my maintenance and they strongly recommend CamGuard as well as Blackstone oil analysis.
If you're concerned enough about your oil to be changing it so frequently, I think you should seriously consider sending samples to Blackstone for analysis.
Matt Bogard- Posts: 110
- Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:47 pm
- Location: Omaha, NE
Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
- Ray B
- ICS member
- Posts: 144
- Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:02 am
Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?
I understand those who rebuild at TBO. My attitude is that oil sample testing and filter magnetic strips (along with external observable changes in temp and performance) will tell me when it's time to tear the engine down. I've experienced impending engine failure after a rebuild or new engine change as often as I have from a high mileage version.
No that I'm home based in New England I have switched to 15w50 cause it's cold out there!
I also religiously use Avblend. It's an anti wear additive we used in the Navy in all aircraft engines. It is used in oil and gas so impacts the entire engine. It's basically the aviation version of Zmax for cars. Use it there too. Kept me out of the drink in the fleet so why change a good thing. Believe it or not..Avblend is cheaper than Zmax but is an identical formula according to the manufacturer. Go figure.
At any rate, while this is my practice and experience offered for what it's worth, and is not an attempt to advocate to others.
Randy Johnson- Posts: 176
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