Forum

Notifications
Clear all

This Forum is a place for Piper Comanche pilots to communicate and discuss technical issues

If you join or reset a password, please check your Spam Email box for emails from Admin at ComancheTechTalk.com

Please put your questions on the forum as well so everyone can read and respond. Someone else might be having similar questions.

All questions or topics on the Forums automatically get sent to the Tech team as well.

Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

1 Posts
1 Users
0 Reactions
144 Views
Admin
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1162
Topic starter  

 

Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby Ray B » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:52 am

At the Lancaster TX CPPP training I learned from Zach that the additive in shell 15W-50 is not cam guard as I had thought. Also the oil starts out as a thin viscosity and has additives to thicken it as it warms up, the opposite of what I thought was taking place. Since I have read great things about Cam Guard and the price is aprox the same per oil change I decided to switch.( Shell 15W-50 has been used since OH). I change oil and filter every 25 to 30hrs and the oil is usually to about the 18 -20 hour mark when it starts turning dark. ( PA24-250 engine SMOH 1220hrs.) After the change to 100W and a pint of Cam Guard the oil is already starting to turn color at 4-5 hours. (also switched to Champion CH48111-1 Filter). Is this due to the Cam Guard cleaning sludge out where the 15W-50 didn't? Will it clean up after an oil change or two? Is changing oil Wt. not a good idea mid stream? What do you think? Has anyone had this same experience?--- I should note that the engine was completely cleaned when down for a prop strike 400 hours ago. Ray B
Ray B
ICS member
ICS member
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:02 am

 

 

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby N3322G » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:35 pm

Ray,

 

I'll be very interested in what's happening. Ken saw a clip on Blackstone oil analysis company a while back and we've been using it ever since because they actually give you words on what is 'going on' in the engine - like after one change ... 'this will probably clean up in the next change because of the circumstances you cited' and it did.

They send free sampler kits and then bill when you use them. http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ if you want to try them.

While I'd like to be able to answer your question, we haven't had this experience, so I hope this is of help to you.

Pat

 

Patricia Jayne (Pat) Keefer ICS 08899
PA-39 #10 Texas

User avatar
N3322G
ICS member
ICS member
 
Posts: 1911
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:58 pm
Location: Fort Worth, Texas area

 

 

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby Ray B » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:44 pm

Thanks Pat, I ordered a test kit. Ray B
Ray B
ICS member
ICS member
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:02 am

 

 

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby John Wedge » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:05 pm

Hi Ray,
I guess I was asleep as I don't remember or did not catch the discussion about the oil. We use the shell 15w-50 because we thought it had the best additives BUT have read about the Cam Guard. My question is - was it a recommendation or general consensus among Comanche people that using the 100w with Cam Guard would be better for the engine? I too have ordered the Blackstone kit. Enjoyed meeting you and talking about the old war planes etc.
John
John Wedge
ICS member
ICS member
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:40 am

 

 

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby Jay » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:51 am

There was a long discussion over on the AOPA board about this, including a rep from CamGuard.

 

After my engines were overhauled last year, and after consulting with a couple of IAs and two engine shops, the consensus opinion favored break in on straight mineral oil then after 50 hours going to Phillips 20W-50 plus CamGuard, which is what we've done. According to CamGuard there is no aviation oil out there with the same additive package.

Jay

Jay
PA 30 N7702Y
User avatar
Jay
ICS member
ICS member
 
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:59 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon
  •  

 

 

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby Zach Grant L1011jock » Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:51 am

Ray,
You may be cleaning a bit of stuff out of the engine, or you could be seeing the difference in the oil formulation, or it could be something else entirely. Using the proper oil for the temperature range is the key to all oil servicing. I do have to say I am not quite on board with the Philips XC 20-50 as it is a non ashless dispersant oil (multigrade, but straight mineral oil) and Lycoming specifically states that only Ashless Dispersant (AD) oil should be used after break in (and on the factory turbo engines, it says to use AD from first start). I am not an oil expert, but I believe that the Camguard additive does give some of the detergent qualities, but how well it suspends the impurities, I really don't know. I have seen several things from oil. Castrol Aviator is like the stuff they give you before a colonoscopy. If there is something in the engine, it will break it free, and pretty scarry at that. Aeroshell, is not the greatest at keeping things cleen, but seems to be consistant in not breaking up anything bad either. Camguard works great, but is an additive, it does not change all of the properties of a given type of oil. Exxon Elite is somewhere inbetween Aeroshell and Castrol, and I would not use it midstream. Start it in a new engine and you will be fine. As for running non AD oils in Lycomings. I wouldn't run them much more than 15-20 hrs between changes if it were up to me, and I wouldn't let it sit for more than a month or so. Too much stuff can settle out and plug up important nooks and crannys. Everyone has an oppinion on all of this. These are mine.

 

-Zach

"Keep it above 5 feet and don't do nuthin dumb!"
User avatar
Zach Grant L1011jock
Technical Advisor
 
Posts: 1404
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:35 pm
Location: Indianapolis KEYE

 

 

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby Ray B » Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:26 am

Thanks Zach, I may have "cried wolf" too soon. I've put another couple of hours on the oil since I posted the question and the oil has remained the same, no further darkening. I stayed with 100W for the winter because I rarely see very low temps here in southern OK. plus my oil sump preheater makes for easy starting even when it freezes. I'll post what happens with the oil as it gets 18 to 20 hours on it and what the filter looks like at oil change. Ray B
Ray B
ICS member
ICS member
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:02 am

 

 

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby Jim Worley » Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:01 pm

Zach,
I just switched to phillips X/C in my 250 (from Castrol AD120, no longer produced). Here is a quote from the X/C sales blurb

 

"Phillips 66 X/C® Aviation Oil is an ashless dispersant, multigrade engine oil specifically formulated for year-round use in aircraft piston engines."

Am I completely out to lunch on the AD thing. If so, I am switching to something else next oil change!

Thanks
Jim

User avatar
Jim Worley
ICS member
ICS member
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:10 am

 

 

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby 9089P » Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:08 pm

Hi Jim, Zach,

 

You are both right! Phillips makes 2 types of 20-50, The type A is AD and the Type M is not. In the 3 lycomings I have broken in I used the type M for the first 25 hrs then went to the type A in the first one and to aeroshell in the last 2. Truth be told I liked the Phillips better (can't explain why) but I'm following the expert advice.

Good luck, Don

9089P
ICS member
ICS member
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:01 am

 

 

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby Jay » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:22 pm

Phillips XC 20W50 is a mineral based ashless dispersant. http://oilstore.stores.yahoo.net/phxcavoil20c.html

 

Jay

Jay
PA 30 N7702Y
User avatar
Jay
ICS member
ICS member
 
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:59 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon
  •  

 

 

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby Richard Andrews » Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:16 am

If I recall correctly Lycoming engines require an anti-scuff additive to help protect the cams. I think I recall that AeroShell is the only one with the specific cam scuff compound the Lycoming requires. Does CamGuard meet this requirement?
Richard Andrews
ICS member
ICS member
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:35 pm

 

 

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby Ray B » Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:20 pm

Well, I didn't cry wolf too soon. Oil is definitely darker and turning that way fast with only 10hrs time on it. This after switching from shell 15W-50 to shell 100W plus cam guard. (I also switched to the longer oil filter) I think the oil will be completely black by the 15 hour mark so I'll change it then (or sooner) and cut the filter open to check for more than normal sludge and carbon deposits. I'll report what I find. Ray B
Ray B
ICS member
ICS member
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:02 am

 

 

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby Zach Grant L1011jock » Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:33 pm

Only the O-320-H2AD as installed in the late '70s 172s are covered under the AD to require the anti scuff additive. Camguard is not an approved replacement for the LW...xxx snake oil. Other approved sources are the aeroshell 15w50, and "plus" single grade oils. The additive package in the camguard is more anticorrosion in content, but does have some antiwear properties.
-Zach
"Keep it above 5 feet and don't do nuthin dumb!"
User avatar
Zach Grant L1011jock
Technical Advisor
 
Posts: 1404
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:35 pm
Location: Indianapolis KEYE

 

 

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby Zach Grant L1011jock » Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:43 pm

Ray,
Check the oil suction screen on the sump as well. It probably will show more obstructions than the filter does if there has been crud cleaned out of the engine. You might also want to do a quick compression check to see if you might have a ring issue causing excessive blowby. I can't say I have seen the switch you made in oil make the oil this dark this soon without something else happening coincedently.

 

Zach

PS- Merry Christmas, and happy new year to all. Also, thanks for the cracked bungee arm.

"Keep it above 5 feet and don't do nuthin dumb!"
User avatar
Zach Grant L1011jock
Technical Advisor
 
Posts: 1404
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:35 pm
Location: Indianapolis KEYE

 

 

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby Ray B » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:30 am

Thanks Zach, I'll check the screen and do a comp. ck.------I have a matching cracked bungee arm if you need another one. Ray B
Ray B
ICS member
ICS member
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:02 am
Top

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby Ray B » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:33 pm

Well I couldn't take it any more! Last Saturday after a trip to Claremore Oklahoma for their great " last saturday of the month lunch" my oil was so black I dumped it at 20 hours and checked the filter and screen like Zach recommended. Filter and screen clean as could be! I should say that I have flown 59P 200+ hours in the last 13 months after purchase. It had only flown about 10-15 hours per for the previous couple of years. It was using a qt. of oil aprox. every hour and a half. I started changing oil and filter every 30 hours and flew the daylights out of it, all on 15W-100 Shell. Oil consumption is now down to a qt. every 4-5 hours and the plugs all run clean. The only change was going to 100W Shell and adding Cam Guard. Since I bought 4 pints of CG I'll go with 100W for this and 2 more oil chgs and see if any thing changes with the turning black early situation. After the first 3 oil changes when I first got her, 59Ps oil looked clear for 20 hours or so before darkening. So, as Zach suggested I may have developed a case of blow by (hopefully due to a divine case of ring grove alignment) and it will go way or I'll need to do a fix to one or more cylinders, or better yet this oil change will go back to normal time laps for oil darkening.----- In the mean time the sun is out, 59P is running smooth, and if they'll get that snow off the runway I'll go flying! Ray B
Ray B
ICS member
ICS member
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:02 am

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby Timothy Poole » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:50 pm

Hi everyone -- I'm new to the forum so I apologize for resurrecting a couple of years old thread. I wanted to weigh in to the multiple comments made regarding Phillips 20W50. I'm sure new people (like me) search these threads looking for info so hopefully I'll add some value.

My understanding of CamGuard having talked to many mechanics and engine shops of varying backgrounds over time is the plane should fly regularly and if so shouldn't have any issues with wear. I know, I know -- regularly is a vague term and not every can afford to simply fly their plane all the time. If it's only flying once per month (or less) then you definitely need the additive to help keep a protective film on the cam which prevents corrosion and eventual wear.

We run the Phillips 20W50 X/C exclusively in our entire fleet. Engine mix includes O-320-D2Js, IO-320-B1As in our PA-30, IO-360-CIC, IO-360-M1A, IO-360-L2A, and even the IO-240-B3 when I had the DA-20. I don't use CamGuard in any of these engines because they fly multiple times per week, with the 172s flying several sorties per day. We change oil and filters every 50 hours, take oil samples every 100 hrs, and knock on wood have not yet had a lubrication related problem with any of them. One of our O-320s is currently at 2300 SMOH and running perfectly fine.

In consultation with several engine shops (trust but verify) we are even using the Phillips now as the break in oil when we do our engine changes. We've done this twice now with our last two O-320 swaps and break in occurred without any drama and oil consumption stabilized within 12-15 hours each time.

Tim

Edit: I forgot to add, we are located in the mid-Atlantic (just outside of DC) and we run this oil year round.

User avatar
Timothy Poole
 
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:43 pm
Location: KVKX
  •  

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby Matt Bogard » Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:15 pm

I run the Phillips XC 20W50 and have for three years, year-round, with CamGuard.

I have Savvy Aircraft help manage my maintenance and they strongly recommend CamGuard as well as Blackstone oil analysis.

If you're concerned enough about your oil to be changing it so frequently, I think you should seriously consider sending samples to Blackstone for analysis.

User avatar
Matt Bogard
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:47 pm
Location: Omaha, NE

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby Ray B » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:12 am

Since starting this thread four years ago I've put 800+ hours on old 59P and the oil still darkens around 12 to 15 hours and I change it at 25 to 30 hrs. I did change to Phillips XC 20W50 plus Cam Guard about 500 hrs back and could see no difference. Compression is still high 70's all around and bore scoping shows no broken ring groves. Coming close to 1900 hrs now and still flying smooth with oil consumption remaining about 1qt/ 4.5 hrs. At this point I can not complain about early oil darkening from a used airplane that has given so many hours of enjoyable flight at such a reasonable cost.----- (It's also time for trip to Webco for gear transmission lube.) Ray B
Ray B
ICS member
ICS member
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:02 am

Re: Shell 15W-50 to 100W +Cam Guard Switch?

Postby Randy Johnson » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:50 pm

Following the advice of an old Piper Rep...Have always used aeroshell 100 plus when aircraft was in Florida. It always turns dark at about 10 hours and never had an issue. Engine is at 2400 hours and compression is all mid 70s. I Use a tempest filter and the magnetic strip in filter is always clean.

I understand those who rebuild at TBO. My attitude is that oil sample testing and filter magnetic strips (along with external observable changes in temp and performance) will tell me when it's time to tear the engine down. I've experienced impending engine failure after a rebuild or new engine change as often as I have from a high mileage version.

No that I'm home based in New England I have switched to 15w50 cause it's cold out there!

I also religiously use Avblend. It's an anti wear additive we used in the Navy in all aircraft engines. It is used in oil and gas so impacts the entire engine. It's basically the aviation version of Zmax for cars. Use it there too. Kept me out of the drink in the fleet so why change a good thing. Believe it or not..Avblend is cheaper than Zmax but is an identical formula according to the manufacturer. Go figure.

At any rate, while this is my practice and experience offered for what it's worth, and is not an attempt to advocate to others.

User avatar
Randy Johnson
 
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:57 am
Location: Boston Area (BEV)
This topic was modified 5 years ago by ICS archives 2008-2018

   
Quote
Share: