My 0-540 A1D5 engine is beyond TBO (has about 2200 hours on it) and it runs like a top ...with great compression all around. I've heard stories of these engines lasting well into 3500 hours and beyond but I know the time will come.

 

My question is how much should be set aside for the inevitable rebuild? I've been told in the past to expect it to cost about 12k but am hearing at amount may have risen substantially. I live in Florida. Anyone with recent experience or info on the topic?

I want to replace hoses as well...Also interested in any other upgrades that could be considered and how much they cost?

I am currently overhauling my continantial 85 horse engine in my cub. Just for parts, yellow tags, carb, mag overhaul and new cylinders I will be into it for 15k. I haven't even got to the labor part yet.

 

My buddy just had his AEIO-540 overhauled and it cost him 33k. That didn't include the other 5k it cost to have it taken off then reinstalled.

However, there is a lot of variation out there. You can do a field overhaul much cheaper than sending it to a first class engine rebuild shop. But rember there is a lot of difference between shops. One overhaul does not necessarily equal another. Do your homework, get lots of quotes and most importantly get as many recommendations as you can.

Keep us posted on what you decide!

MR

Give Zeypher Engines a call and ask. If nothing major (unexpected) turns up their guess shoud be close.

Wrote and article about our overhaul and it might help. http://www.comancheflyer.com/NS/tech_articles.php

 

#1 lesson for me - choose who removes and installs carefully. We choose poorly, shop is no longer in business. Cost a LOT in future maintenance.

Randy:

 

Since my O-540 engine on my 63 Comanche 250 is at 1950 hours I also am looking at an overhaul soon. My plan is to fly it for say 200- 300 hours more, than go ahead and overhaul. However one way or another I will overhaul before I retire from my airline job in another 5-7 years. If you google Van Bortal engines, last time I got a quote for information on a reman O-540 was around 32K. I believe the price now is a little at 33-34K for a reman. I was also told by my shop that to have KOSOLA look at the engine mount replace and powder coat would be around 2500 - 3000 bucks. I'm figuring 5 grand for R/R. Might have to have the oil cooler looked at. Then add prop overhaul. I'm budgeting just around 40K for my overhaul. Others mileage may vary. Anyway I''m sure there are cheaper ways to go but my plan is to put in a REMAN when I'm ready.

Alan.

In terms of cost, in hindsight, the additional work of remove, install, powder coating the baskets, OH engine accessories, new hoses etc etc about doubled the cost of the engine OH itself. The total was a touch less but that might be a a high water mark to plan for.

If your my age it may be cheaper to by a mid time 250 that needs paint and upholstery, swap out the engine and part out the remaining plane. How many 70 year olds out there think you need a new 2000 hr engine? I mean need, not wish for. Ray B

I agree with the above. You might consider buying just a mid time engine and maybe topping it. bernie

Interesting ideas and info. Thank you.

 

Pat your article is awesome. Thanks for sharing.

Any comments about what signs you look for (besides hours) that caused initial concern about the need for an engine rebuild/replacement. Heat, oil consumption, compression...?

Randy,

 

Thanks for the compliment on the article. I tried to include what we learned. This just isn't something , unless you are in aviation or own lots of planes, that each of us will face very often ... and for that, the checkbook says thank you.

WRT signs ... ours was time and niggling little things - nothing that reached up and grabbed us. We could likely have waited longer esp with two engines but I'm simply not interested in surprises if they can be avoided. As I said, idleness due to elder care commitments took its toll. Having written those checks for TWO engines, this is why even with nowhere to go, we fly once a week for an hour - sometimes more often if we are tuning IFR skills or checking something or practicing x-winds.

We're lucky either of us can fly as illness or injury really puts a cramp in this approach.

Hope you get to fly today.

 

Mike Busch is an interesting cat. I like a lot of what he says, but some you have to take with a grain of salt. Mike is a Cessna, Cirrus, and Continential guy. I take his recommendations and apply them to Lycomings rather carefully. He on the other hand, has no problem extending his wisdom to all things aeronautical.

 

I agree with him on TBO, with a caveat. We don't have a sure fire way to detect when the lower end is about to give out. About 25 years ago, a Comanche 250 owner brought his plane in for an annual inspection into the shop. I was director of ops over the shop and the charter operation. We had done the last oil change, about 40-50 hours before. The filter and analysis were clean at that time. At the annual, the suction screen was full of bearing metal. One of the main bearings had apparently slipped just enough to shut off some of the oil to the bearing. Eventually, with enough hours, that will happen to any engine. Will you catch it in time? This owner barely did as the crank was able to be saved by going .010 undersized on the journals. A few more hours, and he may have had a mailbox post instead of a crankshaft. A few hours beyond that, and the engine might have seized over Lake Michigan.

I will probably run Maggie's engines over TBO if everything seems happy. I do the 400 hour valve inspections. I do oil analysis and cut the filter and pull the suction screen at every oil change. I borescope the cylinders at annual. How far over will I go, I am not sure. If they were new, first run engines, I wouldn't hesitate to go over 3,000 hours. With new I might go as high as 3,500, as I know that it has been done successfully before. I am less interested in being the test pilot that sets a new record.

Another factor is value of the airplane. Let's say you have a $50,000 Comanche with a mid time engine. Now take that airplane and run it to 2500 SMOH. The value now, considering all other things equal would probably be 30k if you are lucky. If you spent the money for a reputable overhaul at the cost of 35k for everything the airplane might now bring 55k. A minus 10k loss if you were to sell it right after overhaul.

 

My point being that you will never get your money back on an overhaul or any other equipment you install in an airplane. The only way to get value out of the overhaul (or new garmin GTN750) is to use it for yourself. The aircraft value will be crushed if you try to sell it with an engine past TBO, and that might be ok for some owners. The cost to overhaul the engine before a sale will not be fully returned. The magic number lies somewhere in that 300-600 TSMOH where you get to enjoy the fresh engine and get some value out of it yourself then sell it before the value starts to fall again.

So you also need to ask yourself how long do I want to own this airplane, how much do I want to spend on it and what do I want it to be worth someday when I am ready to sell it.

Or you could just go out and spend $500 K for a new Cessna Corvalis and be done with it.

 

Unfortunately general aviation manufactures have boxed themselves into a tight little corner. With a new Cessna Skyhawk at over 200K and a private pilot license costing over 10 thousand dollars is it any wonder that the pilot population is getting smaller. I earned the money on my own in 1972 working construction on the Houston ship channel and learning to fly out of Houston's Hobby airport. That cost me around $3000. Went on to get my commercial license again paying for it myself. I'm always amazed at the writers of Flying, AOPA, and other general aviation magazines that just don't get it. It's cost, cost, cost. They write, but if you compare 1972 prices to 2013 prices and account for inflation well then its about even. Maybe. I'll I know is that there were a heck of a lot of us learning to fly in 1972 and the pattern was a buzz with students on the weekends at Hobby. Sure you can go out and get an LSA airplane for around a hundred grand and fly around a 50 mile circle at no faster that 126 mph. You could also do that in a Cessna 150 at 1/5 the cost.

IMHO take your Comanche and put in a new engine, upgrade the radios, the interior, and paint, and fly the heck out of your plane for the next 10,20,30 years and be done with it, or until the avgas crisses comes full tilt. Very few folks are going to spend a couple of hundred thousand dollars to re-engine there Comanche to a diesel engine so he/she burn jet fuel.

Capt Aan Cheak
B-777
X F-14/A-4 driver
Comanche Pilot

Another way of looking at it is that in 1979, when I got my private, the minimum wage was about $3.00. I was paying $30 in a 152 for airplane and instructor. That is 10 hours of minimum wage work to pay for an hour of dual instruction. The last price I saw for a C-152 was $94 for the plane and about $50 for the instructor. That is $144 for an hour of dual instruction. Now that is California prices, so lets assume that it is 20% less in the Midwest, so we call it $115 for an hour of dual. That is just over 15 hours of minimum wage work to pay for an hour of dual instruction -- a 50% increase.

 

Fortunately, I was making more than minimum wage back then. IIRC, I spent about $1,500 on my private pilot's license.