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Maintenance Costs
- 17031
- ICS member
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:44 pm
Re: Maintenance Costs
Mark Anderson- ICS member
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:24 am
- Location: Huntsville , AL
Re: Maintenance Costs
It kind of rubs me the wrong way when people say they had a X thousand dollar "annual". Frankly, you had and annual that was probably a flat rate, and all the additional costs were either repairs to things found during the inspection, or mods that you choose to do concurrently. A Comanche annual should be about 28 hrs flat rate, period, and twins are 34 (Piper flat rate book)! All of them cost the same (OK, there is some varience for shop rate). The annual is an INSPECTION only. Shame on those that defer maint. to inspection time and then complain about the bill. They should fix it when it breaks! At least you qualified your statement with the fact you did some upgrades, but lets call an apple an apple as far as annuals go. Rant off...
-Zach
Zach Grant L1011jock- Technical Advisor
- Posts: 1404
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:35 pm
- Location: Indianapolis KEYE
Re: Maintenance Costs
- Ray B
- ICS member
- Posts: 144
- Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:02 am
Re: Maintenance Costs
If you own an airplane you should have an idea how much maintenance costs. Zach nailed it and I will add a couple of observations.
For a well-cared for single engine Comanche I budget $2000 for unscheduled maintenance and $2500 for the annual, $1500 of which is just the inspection, AD review and sign off. It is generally true that the more hours you fly between annuals the more will need to be fixed. An experienced pilot/owner with a well maintained airplane can expect fixed costs of ~$10K a year. Fuel is now a major expense.
If your question relates to purchase interest I would be glad to discuss these costs with you. The idea is to minimize risk.
Dave Pyle 713 464 6717
dap8@comcast.net
- David Pyle
- ICS member
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2003 10:33 pm
- Location: Houston
Re: Maintenance Costs
Depending upon the motivation for your question, you might want to develop your own fixed and variable cost components. If this is for your own budget purposes, it will help you understand where you have leverage. If it is to compare aircraft types or whether your cost per hour is comparable to others - this is nearly impossible to do unless the aircraft start in similar condition and are flown the same number of hours.
AOPA ran an article a couple of years back that listed all the components of cost -
a few of the fixed ones are hangar, insurance, annual inspection, ADs etc
a few of the variable ones are fuel, oil, parking fees, more frequent AD compliance and any improvements
And then there's the biggies of $30K for engine overhaul, $30K for upgraded panel, $15-20K for new paint from a good shop and an interior, well, $5-15K. Except for the engines, the rest of primarily cosmetic so not required unless you don't have a GPS certified for approaches and need to make one of those.
If you share your reason for asking the question, perhaps folks can be more specific in the answers.
Patricia Jayne (Pat) Keefer ICS 08899
PA-39 #10 Texas
N3322G- ICS member
- Posts: 1911
- Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:58 pm
- Location: Fort Worth, Texas area
Re: Maintenance Costs
Over the long haul you'll ride to the middle of the curve, but if you own the airplane long enough you'll have years when you spend a lot more and years when you spend a lot less.
Good luck!
Jay
PA 30 N7702Y
Jay- ICS member
- Posts: 473
- Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:59 pm
- Location: Portland, Oregon
Re: Maintenance Costs
Mark Anderson- ICS member
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:24 am
- Location: Huntsville , AL
Re: Maintenance Costs
I was surprised at all the responses, thank you, it is very helpful. As suggested I will provide a little more information.
I bought the plane when I passed my check ride 2 1/2 years ago (I got my instrument cert last fall). The reason for the purchase was to support my business, I'm a consultant, and to be able to visit my daughter and her family in LA more frequently. It has been a struggle to work through the various issues in using the plane but I have been able to figure things out with one notable exception - maintenance. This aspect has been terribly disappointing from a number of aspects.
First the cost. I bought a fixer-upper so expected numerous repairs the first year or so and I was not disappointed. However, the expenses don't seem to quit, contrary to what I have been told would happen. I’m not sure what to expect any more. I’m having trouble getting a straight answer on what these costs should be so I can determine if I’m doing something wrong or my experience is normal. I would post the info here but I’m in the process of collecting it now (I too need to separate the upgrades from the repair expenses). I can tell you this though, the current estimate to complete the annual is over $8k and I put on a little under 300 hours on the tach since the last annual. There have been additional costs during the year of course. I have been very diligent about keeping the plane in good repair.
Second the surprises. My frame of reference is the auto industry. I get an estimate of time and money up front and a phone call if the costs (or time) go over the amount quoted. With planes it feels more like I give them the plane and a blank check then hope for the best. Also, how is it that mechanics can crawl all over that plane all year but when the annual comes, that whole in the battery box that was OK the past 6 months suddenly becomes a requirement for the plane to be flight worthy? There’s something wrong with the whole process.
I suspect that my expectations need some adjustment. If I can get a realistic picture of what costs to expect and a clue as to how I should manage the mechanics I might be able to solve this problem. As it stands now, I must admit I’m nearing the end of my rope.
I hope you folks can help me work this out as I have become spoiled by the convenience and possibilities the plane has provided. Enough is enough.
- 17031
- ICS member
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:44 pm
Re: Maintenance Costs
No offense taken, and I don't want to discourage your participation. I simply was having one of this evenings and you were the one that said something that I do get a little miffed at. I'm glad you are maintaining the airplane. Trust me, it is not cheap, but getting in front of the maint. Curve is very rewarding.
Zach
Zach Grant L1011jock- Technical Advisor
- Posts: 1404
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:35 pm
- Location: Indianapolis KEYE
Re: Maintenance Costs
I hear your frustration! But I would bet that if you gave up and sold the airplane, some lucky buyer would be getting a tuned up bird that would serve them well for a long time with minimal work.
Jay
PA 30 N7702Y
Jay- ICS member
- Posts: 473
- Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:59 pm
- Location: Portland, Oregon
Re: Maintenance Costs
As another person who hires others to work on the plane, I totally, completely and empatheticly understand your question.
I started reading the ICS Forum solely because I was having similar problems and questions. I've learned a lot by reading other owner's issues.
One of the things I had to learn was each shop/mechanic has their own skills and what they are best at doing. At an annual, the only thing that is required to be done is the inspection but because, the dissasembly is already done, frequently airworthiness repairs and ADs, optional repairs or improvements are made.
It is true that a battery box that was fine in 2010 can deteriorate enough that it has to be rebuilt or replaced in 2011. The shop should give you the options and the pricing to go with it. There is an upgraded box http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/pa-28.php and I've goen to the gel battery to hopefully eliminate the battery maintenance and acid spill problems.
It is also true that one mechanic may view the battery box as fine and the next year the next mechanic has a different opinion. There will also be variances based upon how much Comanche knowledge the shop has. In this aspect airplane maintenance is very different than car maintenance. The older Comanches get, the fewer mechanics have lots of experience on them. Thanks to ICS posting the tech manuals on the website, I've learned by checkbook a lot about the parts and maintenance. I have no desire to be a mechanic but after a few years, I've learned to ask smarter questions.
The shop should be able to give you ballpark estimates for any work they propose, if not, I personally would look for another shop. Perhaps because you spent so much the previous years, they thought you want to spend that much every year - if you look at it from a business perspective, the relationship and understanding of the client goals takes awhile to develop. I normally prepare a list of what I want done in addition to the annual inspection and ask for an estimate.
Hope this helps. To read about the last annual I had done, see this website at http://www.comancheflyer.com/NS/index-flyersN.php February, 2011 issue page 28. I'd be interested in reading about your annuals in future issues.
Patricia Jayne (Pat) Keefer ICS 08899
PA-39 #10 Texas
N3322G- ICS member
- Posts: 1911
- Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 1:58 pm
- Location: Fort Worth, Texas area
Re: Maintenance Costs
There are many factors we don't know that may or may not be applicable to our experience. Having owned a bunch of 260Bs I believe that there is an occasional bad apple in the barrel. I call those "hard luck" airplanes. Reported costs mean little unless we know the specific circumstances.
dap8@comcast.net
- David Pyle
- ICS member
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2003 10:33 pm
- Location: Houston
Re: Maintenance Costs
Hank
Hank Spellman- Moderator
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2000 3:13 am
- Location: Lincoln, IL
Re: Maintenance Costs
I think it's cheaper and a bit more predictable to buy an airplane the way you want it then to make it the way you want it.
- tomburke1
- ICS member
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 2:30 pm
- Location: Fort Lauderdale fl