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Hello everyone,
I'm Carl the new guy on the block, I've been watching and learning on the sideline for some time now and I've reached the point of needing your input to help me make an enlightened decision, please excuse the lengthy synopsis.
Quick background- I'm a 45 year old race engineer that has been an aviation buff since I can remember, I had always promised myself that by the age of 50 I would be in the air, life blessed me and decided that it would be a little earlier. I started my PPL about a year ago and I'm just about finished, I can honestly say it hasn't disappointed and I've been bit by the bug really hard!
Because of my technical background, manual abilities, desire for non-stone age technology and my natural need to make things better I always wanted to go the experimental route, RV10 or Sling TSI, 4 adult usable traveling machine with reasonable payload and speed. With life as busy as it is for me at this stage, I'm realistic and acknowledge that I don't have enough time to build from scratch if I want to fly before I'm 65.
I've always loved the Comanche and when it's done to my desired "standard", i.e.: N6561P https://youtu.be/cqwERv0JJ1A (sold for 185k in 3h), this bird fits my mission almost perfectly short of a 200+kt pressurized cabin class 6 seater and I will not be completely happy with less and can't afford to buy something like that outright at the moment.
I'm just about to pull the trigger on a 1960-250 that has been sitting and out of annual for 20 years, it was about to be parted out for profit by someone I know but I'm planning on resurrecting it. The plane is straight, engine has 300h since rebuild, it needs a prop and wing tips (tip tanks were sold off by present owner).
Let it be known I'm not thinking of doing this with the objective of saving money in the end and I realize that it will be more expensive but as I said even if I bought an average flying 250, with prices the way they are today I would have to go through the thing anyways, landing gear rebuild, re-wire, panel upgrade, paint, interior, prop (I'm in Eastern Canada), etc... I'm not only looking forward to the destination but also the trip!
I have many friends in the aviation industry but all are from the corporate aviation world and if it isn't at least a Challenger 604 they don't understand my desire for a Vintage airplane! lol
The only GA A&P I know at the moment is an old timer with more experience then I have years on this earth, he is specialized in Cessna and float planes and is open in saying he hasn't touched a 24 in a very long time so he can't really help me with what I want to do.
His suggestion to me is categorically NOT to do this! He hasn't seen the plane, it's about 500km from us, he's just speaking from experience. I do also think that he is a little jaded after all this time and he said a few things when I went to meet him that made me think that he might be talking for the both sides of his mouth. "Plane won't climb past 10k feet, won't fly IFR, has known rust issues" he didn't even believe that the service celling is 22k even after I showed him the POH on my IPad and honestly scared the daylights out of me with potential rusty rivets. He gave me cold feet.
So what I'm looking for from the community is what has been your personal experience if any, what pitfalls on the airframe should I watch out for, do you think it's a feasible project given the scarcity of parts and do you think I'm crazy for wanting to do this?!?! For me if the bones are good then I'm keen on getting on with this but I want to avoid pandora's box, I can't afford to make this kind of mistake.
Plane will have wings off when it arrives, I'm planning on a 5 year project, I have the network and resources to get all the cosmetics done for next to nothing, plan on putting as much sweat equity in it as possible and I'm not in a rush to fly.
Not looking to be convinced either way but looking for justified opinions.
Thanks everyone!
Carl
Life is short - just do it. I bought an old 1960 250 (sn 1922) hangar queen several years ago. Since then I have refurbushed the gear, updated the avionics, replaced the front oil seal, replaced four of the cylinders, repaired some damaged panels on the wing (previous owner), added tip tanks, and numerous other repairs and upgrades.
You can see some pictures of the aircraft on some of the pages here: clrdct.blogspot.com
This year I am replacing the windsheild, updating some fibreglass parts, and refurbishing the seats.
The aircraft is rock solid, has never let me down, and works extremely well. Best aircraft I have ever owned. Great IFR flyer too.
No one ever got into high performance single engine aircraft ownership because they were practical or wanted to save money. It is an irrational love affair so enjoy yourself
I REGRET NOTHING!
William
I found myself in a very similar position when I went looking for a PA24. I ended up finding one that had been parked in a hangar since 2012 with an owner that was insistent that it only needed an annual since it was fine when he parked it. The good thing was it was parked in a hangar the whole time and records showed it lived it’s entire life in the southwest.
I was able to get it for a very low price and then drug it back to my hangar where my intention was to do a thorough annual and address any age related items. Unfortunately, we’re dealing with a 62 year old airframe that’s been molested by cheap maintenance over the years. This is where things started getting out of hand. Welcome to the biggest can of worms you’ll ever encounter.
I’m a bit of a protectionist so, I went from a thorough annual and freshen up to a full blown mechanical restoration. I’m sure you will be in the same situation. Take whatever budget you have in mind and double it.
My justification is that I’m going to know my bird is 100% correct and is configured the way I want it. I’ve got the engine off and apart for overhaul, a condemned prop, engine frame off for inspection, tail off, and a bunch of wiring removed. Once you start looking, you’re going to continue to fine more issues. And once you’re in this deep, you just got to keep going.
For me, this isn’t that big of a deal because I’m and AP IA. I have accounts with most of the parts distributors, all the tools, and a great network of friends in the industry to fill in my gaps. I don’t think I would pursue this level of overhaul if I didn’t have these assets. The cost would be too much.
I’m sure you’re aware but, parts availability is becoming an issue. Lead times are long and prices are rising. Webco has been super helpful for some of the harder to find parts but even basic things like propellers are problematic. My Hartzell Top Prop is $12k with a 24-28 week lead time. Lycoming cylinders are almost impossible to find new right now with lead times into 2023. Landing gear bushings are astronomically priced. Just more food for thought.
I had about 200 hours in Comanches flying cloud seeding to know that I liked the airframe, it was reliable, and knew it would fit my mission. The entry price was the tipping point for me.
I hope some of this helps your decision.
I appreciate the insight and honesty and as you said I think our circumstances are very similar.
Thankfully I've come across the perfect AP to support me in this project so the network shouldn't be a problem.
Once I get the engine back from IRAN I will feel much better about this financially!
After that, things will make more sense to me...
Wish me luck!
d
Just to give you a little more of an idea of the financial burden that you will be taking on, here is what I'm at right now working the firewall forward.
Engine overhaul ($14000), all new accessories (OH mags), baffles, exhaust, engine mount/frame inspection and repair, isolator mounts, and propeller have added up to about $34K. And, Im not done! Thats with me doing all the work and paperwork and making everything right as I go. I haven't even started on the annual, gear, finished the tail, or installed any avionics yet. Its going to be a long while before any budget is allowed for paint and interior after its mechanically sound.
Make sure your A&P/IA is in it for the long haul! As an A&P I cant tell you how much I hate coming in behind someone else, halfway through a job! I will not do it anymore.
The market is strong for airplanes right now but be sure you have the bird you want for the long haul and at a price point you're ok with when the market falls again!
Aaron, I feel your pain. In fact, I really do feel your pain. I'm doing the repair on a Comanche 260 at the present time and I am surprised that you can do the job for the total that you quote.
My job has had a gear collapse on roll out, so that has complicated things a lot. Skin replacement, a total gear replacement including conduits and actuator, engine mount replacement, exhaust replacements with new, zero time prop replacement, engine rebuild, a 406 MHz E.L.T., and the panel will have a $20,000 Avidyne IFD540 installed. I'm far from done, although I'm close to completing the parts purchases.
Like your aircraft, the value of this 260 will appreciate a lot with the repair and improvements. I reckon I'll be lucky to come out square, but it will be a nice plane when all is done. Yours will be too. It's worth it, I think since the Comanches are exceptional aircraft. Nice ones sell for way north of a hundred grand now, so that's incentive.
In the end you'll stand back and applaud the result. I must admit that repairing a damaged plane is a big job, but it's worth it.
Pat
And so it begins!
On April 9th I pulled the trigger and bought my project, C-FTGM is now in my shop and things have moved along quite quickly since then. I was lucky enough to meet the perfect AME to support me in this adventure and thankfully he has a need for my skillsets so somehow I think we were meant to be, life has a tendency to work in mysterious ways sometimes! Because of him I was also able to merge with his network which is making this all possible.
Before finalizing the transaction he wanted to inspect the plane and give me the final thumbs up and he wanted to be the one to remove the wings for transport. So I drove down with one of my trailers and met him at the airport, we quickly concluded that the plane was in "great" shape and would make the perfect resto project. Once the tools started coming out things went quick, arrived at the hangar at 8h30 and by lunch time the plane was loaded and I was on the road.
The kicker for me was the air pump, if the engine was rusted and in need of a full overhaul that would have seriously altered my schedule so the first thing I wanted to do was run it through IRAN and see what gives. Within a week the engine was torn down and believe it or not, it was perfect! Everything was cleaned, measured, resealed, painted and but back together. New fuel pump, new carb, next to new rebuilt MAG and I have an ElectroAir unit on order. Engine is now sorted and ready to go, stored on a pallet and put away for D day.
While the guys took care of the engine I was busy stripping the fuselage, cleaning and removing all the wiring. I'll be doing a full Dynon HDX suite and as much technology as possible. I know some of you will cringe and object but I guess that's because of the line of work I'm in. I'm at the pointy end of the car industry and find comfort in automation when done right. I like to innovate and make things better so I can't buy in to the "it's been done like this for years and it works so lets keep doing it...". Obviously I won't step over the certified lines even if I sometime want to badly but I'll be on the edge as much as possible.
What began as a multi year project has now taken a serious turn. If things continue like this I'll have the plane in the hangar by fall ready to have it's wings reinstalled and flying by spring. Wish me luck!
And so it begins!
On April 9th I pulled the trigger and bought my project, C-FTGM is now in my shop and things have moved along quite quickly since then. I was lucky enough to meet the perfect AME to support me in this adventure and thankfully he has a need for my skillsets so somehow I think we were meant to be, life has a tendency to work in mysterious ways sometimes! Because of him I was also able to merge with his network which is making this all possible.
Before finalizing the transaction he wanted to inspect the plane and give me the final thumbs up and he wanted to be the one to remove the wings for transport. So I drove down with one of my trailers and met him at the airport, we quickly concluded that the plane was in "great" shape and would make the perfect resto project. Once the tools started coming out things went quick, arrived at the hangar at 8h30 and by lunch time the plane was loaded and I was on the road.
The kicker for me was the air pump, if the engine was rusted and in need of a full overhaul that would have seriously altered my schedule so the first thing I wanted to do was run it through IRAN and see what gives. Within a week the engine was torn down and believe it or not, it was perfect! Everything was cleaned, measured, resealed, painted and but back together. New fuel pump, new carb, next to new rebuilt MAG and I have an ElectroAir unit on order. Engine is now sorted and ready to go, stored on a pallet and put away for D day.
While the guys took care of the engine I was busy stripping the fuselage, cleaning and removing all the wiring. I'll be doing a full Dynon HDX suite and as much technology as possible. I know some of you will cringe and object but I guess that's because of the line of work I'm in. I'm at the pointy end of the car industry and find comfort in automation when done right. I like to innovate and make things better so I can't buy in to the "it's been done like this for years and it works so lets keep doing it...". Obviously I won't step over the certified lines even if I sometime want to badly but I'll be on the edge as much as possible.
What began as a multi year project has now taken a serious turn. If things continue like this I'll have the plane in the hangar by fall ready to have it's wings reinstalled and flying by spring. Wish me luck!
Sorry, can't attach multiple pictures for some reason?!?
Your project is awesome. You started with a straight plane and no damage, so that was a plus.
The Dynon system is excellent. I like their autopilot a lot but I've been told that it has not been approved for the Comanche. Dynon candidly tells me that they have no present plans for certification of their units on the PA30/39, which is disappointing and an error on their part.
While your plane is open is the time to do an autopilot installation. I'm a fan of the Garmin 500 autopilot but it takes two G5 units to drive it so that might not work with your panel.
Pat
Thanks Pat!
Yes A/P is on my "to do list" but I'm still holding my breath and hoping that Dynon certifies installation in the PA24 or at the very least is able to interface with the GFC 500. Adding G5s isn't an option and I refuse to support what I consider to be highway robbery with a G3X system.
I'm so hopeful that Dynon comes through that I'm even planning placement of the control unit! lol
